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  • Hanging out with Bearice shooting Bows

    Ol pal Bearice from the site here came by today and brought his Prime 'SWIFT' Bow and Checked out my Bowtech 'ASSASSIN'. I was impressed with his archery knowledge coming from only 4 years as a Bow-Hunter. He even pointed out a few things that helped my shooting. I will say that His Prime Bow is as quiet as a Monday morning Church!! I had fun shooting with him and comparing Bows.
    Nice bows.Glad to see you are getting to spend time with a lot of posters on the site.I have met a lot of friends on this site myself.It will be interesting to see which one of you gets a deer first,lol.I can tell by his posts that Bearice is knowledgable about archery.Guess i will stick with my Parker compound for a while.Its not high dollar like you guys bows,but I'm comfortable using it.
    LOL A BOW regardless of price is only as Good as the person shooting it lol...I know guys that have $1500 into a Bow and can't shoot any better than my Daughter with her $45 Walmart special lol
    chinny chin chin
    See the way u was tucking ur chin before we moved ur peep sight up i mean dang no wonder deer been busting u was drooling on them lol just kidding had fun yesterday it was nice to have someone to shoot with for a change. tell davey he males a great go getter lol after bow season we'll get that QAD put on and shooting good.
    Slingin arrows
    LOL Yeah Davey is a Good Go-Getter but the way he eats, He needs the exercise lol. Yeah I'll stick with the biscuit for the rest of this season for sure...I have a G5 drop away also.
    I shoot a Parker also. Happy to say it has done me well. I know those high dollar bows help the shooter but practice with any bow that you are comfortable shooting is the best advantage I have seen that a hunter can have. Practice, practice, and practice more. Maybe one day I will break down and go high tech. For now, I like the Parker. Happy hunting!
    Yeah I like my Parker bow a lot.I keep looking at the more exspensive bows,but mine shoots so well I don't think I would be any happier with anything else.I love practicing with mine every day .
    Was that girl hanging w u guys to? LOL
    I wish she was dang she had prefect form lol
    Yeah I see why your neighbor out shoots you GT.

    Technology is improving leaps and bounds. It's getting to the point that all new bows are almost equal, and you don't have to spend a lot of money to have a great bow.

    I hunted with Inferno4me yesterday and he let me pull back on a new Parker that hadn't been setup yet. Dang the wall comes up soft and the letoff is hardly noticable, with the exception you can hold it forever with no shake or getting tired.

    Great looking bows....go put some color on the ground!
    Viper/Creek I had to send that Girl inside when Jeff got there lol I would hate to see him get his tongue caught in the Bow String LMBO!!! Your right Viper, I shot a Hoyt Element and a Heli M and for the price..I LOVE my Assassin...The reviews stated that the $600 Assassin package was the best Deal in archery and Once I seen my friends and the similarities it had to my Old Tribute, I knew that It was the 1 I wanted without question!! I have it wrapped in towels right now like a baby cause I got caught in the rain.....AGAIN!! lol
    That is awesome man!! I know you two had fun.. I like getting together and shooting as well. It always helps to have another set of eyes watching you. I have not shot the G% bows yet. However while I was in Greensboro last week I did stop by an archery shop called Buttermilk Archery. I shot an Elite bow for the first time and needless to say I was impressed. It was not one of there new ones and it was only set at about 58 lbs but man was it sweet. The back wall was not like any other bow I have ever shot. It felt like I could have set the bow down at full draw and it would have stayed. It was incredibly quiet as well......I just love shooting bows lol...
    Yeah DCB the elite bow do have a letoff that feels like it holds itself the elite an the prime i have are similar when it comes to that. If u get the chance shoot the prime centroid or shift but beware cause they leave u wanting one lol
    Hey Bearice....what is the Ibo of your new bow?
    I think its 330
    Arrow set up
    Is your arrow set up coming close to that? I know my Hoyt's IBO is 314 and I met that with the speed pro arrows but they are too brittle. I am probably 290 to 300 right now. I haven't chronographed it yet. I want to get all I can out of my bow.....safely!

    I would like to be sending them in at around 330 fps. I think it would make a lot of difference on shots 30 - 40 yards. After that yardage they never hear it coming lol!
    Good Read On Arrow Set Up
    Here's a good read on arrow set up I copied from Hunter's Friend. This is why I want lighter, faster arrows. If I were hunting Elk or Moose.....things would be different. I want to cut my arrow flight time by a 1/3 at any given distance, and increase accuracy, minimizing wounding deer. Number one goal!

    CHAPTER 5: Speed & Kinetic Energy

    Speed ... Oh How we Love it!

    Fast cars, fast computers, fast wide receivers, fast-drying paint, fast-acting weed-killer.....if it's fast, we love it. And when it comes to our archery equipment, it's no different. Show most guys a brand new bow, and their first question is likely to be 'How fast does it shoot?' Right or wrong, speed is a major consideration for most archers. And it's great to see how advancements in materials and design technologies have made today's compound bows better, faster, and more fun to shoot than ever before.

    Of course, there will always be a few dissenters in the crowd, those who'll loftily claim they don't care about speed. But the market trends don't lie. Archery consumers are taking advantage of these innovations, buying high-performance bows and speed-boosting gadgets by the trainload. And nothing yields such a predictable and significant increase in speed like a good set of lightweight carbon arrows. So let's examine the pro's and con's to shooting lightweight arrows. Let's find out where they help, where they hurt, and where they don't really make a difference.

    Arrow Mass Affect Arrow Velocity

    When all other variables are constant, arrow speed has an inverse relationship with arrow mass. Of course there is a point of diminishing returns, but as arrow mass increases, arrow speed decreases. As arrow mass decreases, arrow speed increases. Your bow will only generate a certain amount of energy (given its particular settings), and it uses that energy to get the arrow moving. The less the arrow weighs, the faster that energy can make the arrow accelerate. The heavier the arrow, the less acceleration is achieved. Interestingly, a bow transfers energy into a heavier arrow more efficiently than it does into a light arrow (more on this in a moment). Nonetheless. the rule still applies, lighter arrows go faster - heavier arrows go slower.

    Arrow Mass vs. Velocity Chronograph Test

    To illustrate this point, we prepared 9 arrows, ranging from 250 grains up to 650 grains in precisely 50 grain increments. Each arrow was fired from our test bow (60#/28' Bowtech Patriot) through the chronograph and the results were recorded (table below). Five trials were conducted for each arrow - to achieve a reliable speed measurement (average). Each arrow was fired from the same distance, from the same shooter, and without any modifications to the bow's settings during the test. The test was conducted at our indoor range, where lighting and environmental conditions could be held constant throughout our test.

    Our Test Results - Chronograph Speed Test

    Trial #1 Trial #2 Trial #3 Trial #4 Trial #5 Average
    250gr Arrow 4.17 gr/lb. 294 294 295 294 294 294.2 FPS
    300gr Arrow 5.00 gr/lb. 274 272 273 273 273 273.0 FPS
    350gr Arrow 5.83gr/lb. 256 256 257 255 256 256.0 FPS
    400gr Arrow 6.67gr/lb. 242 242 242 243 242 242.2 FPS
    450gr Arrow 7.50 gr/lb. 231 231 231 230 231 230.8 FPS
    500gr Arrow 8.33 gr/lb. 220 219 220 220 219 219.6 FPS
    550gr Arrow 9.17 gr/lb. 211 210 209 210 209 209.8 FPS
    600gr Arrow 10.00 gr/lb. 202 201 201 202 202 201.6 FPS
    650gr Arrow 10.83 gr/lb. 196 195 195 195 194 195.0 FPS

    As you can see, as arrow mass increased - arrow velocity decreased. Mathematically, the inverse relationship isn't exactly linear, but close enough to illustrate the concept.

    OK. But is Faster Necessarily Better?

    Maybe. From a standpoint of accuracy, you may find that lightweight arrows will yield some surprising benefits. From the moment your arrow is released from the bow, it begins to lose trajectory. As it succumbs to the effects of gravity and air resistance, it's flight path (trajectory) changes and the arrow eventually begins to drop back to earth. Arrows which fly more quickly hold their trajectory better than slower arrows. So archers who shoot lighter-faster arrows will have less need to adjust for distance - since the faster arrows will hold a 'flatter' trajectory within a given distance. In effect, the faster arrow allows you to make more mistakes in yardage estimation. If you mis-estimate a deer to be 25 yards away, and it is actually 30 yards away, the fast arrow still lands lower than expected, but it 'misses' its mark by a smaller margin. Look at the trajectory chart on the right from our Bowtech Patriot experiment. The heavier arrows nosedive more quickly than the lighter faster arrows. So whether you're a hunter or competition 3D shooter, you may find that faster arrows actually add a little forgiveness into your shooting, allowing you to make an error in yardage estimation without paying such a heavy price.

    Hunters may also find that a faster arrow gives game animals less opportunity move out of position. When you fire an arrow at a game animal, the sound of the bow travels much faster (about 1100 fps) than the arrow. So the game animal will certainly hear the sound of the bow before the arrow arrives. During that time, the animal has a brief opportunity to lunge, jump, squat, or otherwise get out of the way. For example, an alarmed deer will often 'crouch' in preparation to jump. This crouching motion makes it appear the deer has attempted to 'duck' the arrow, when in fact the deer is just loading its muscles to jump and flee. As a result, many bowhunters tend to miss high, shooting the arrow over the deer's back or impacting above the kill-zone, resulting in an unfortunate wound. Of course, there are several factors that come into play (the alertness and athleticism of the deer, your distance and angle from the target, the amount of noise from your bow, etc.) which can affect how quickly a deer responds to the sound of your shot. But one thing is for sure. The faster your arrow arrives at the target, the less time the deer will have to react. So let's take a look at how quickly an arrow traverses it's flight path, given a known distance and launch speed.

    Approximate Time to Arrow Impact (Seconds)

    Distance---> 10 Yards 20 Yards 30 Yards 40 Yards 50 yards
    150 fps 0.203 0.412 0.628 0.849 1.078
    175 fps 0.174 0.353 0.538 0.728 0.924
    200 fps 0.152 0.309 0.471 0.637 0.808
    225 fps 0.135 0.275 0.418 0.566 0.718
    250 fps 0.122 0.247 0.377 0.510 0.647
    275 fps 0.111 0.225 0.342 0.463 0.588
    300 fps 0.102 0.206 0.314 0.425 0.539
    325 fps 0.094 0.190 0.290 0.392 0.497
    Assumes a 3% Loss of Velocity Every 10 Yards of Flight Due to Friction/Air Resistance

    So it might seem to be a simple choice. For the best possible performance, we just need to shoot the lightest arrow possible, right? Well, before you hit the turbo button, there are a few other things to consider. Most everything in archery is a trade-off; you have to give up some of this in order to get some of that. The issue of arrow weight and speed is no different. Shooting an ultra-light arrow will indeed give you eye-popping speed, but at some expense.

    More Speed = More Noise

    Shooting a lightweight arrow may result in a notable increase in noise from your bow. It's to be expected, as the faster moving string makes a bigger disturbance in the surrounding air and bows transfer energy into lightweight arrows slightly less efficiently than with heavier arrows. On your particular bow, the difference may be subtle - or quite significant. If you shoot a high-quality modern bow that's already pretty quiet, the difference may be minor. But if your bow is already noisy even when shooting your heavyweight aluminum arrows, shooting ultra-light carbon arrows will guarantee you a virtual harmonic train-wreck.

    As with any bow rig, maintaining your fastener torques, along with a compliment of string silencers, dampeners, and a good high quality stabilizer will all help, but be advised that added speed will still come with some added noise too. If you're a hunter, noise is an important issue, and you'll have to weigh the advantages of flatter trajectory against increased noise. For what it's worth, most modern equipment bowhunters tend not to choose the lightest shafts, but rather a mid-weighted shaft (Easton Axis, Gold Tip Hunter, Beman ICS Hunter, etc.) which yields a moderate finished arrow weight.

    And while there is no single formula which fits every preference and bowhunting application, our average custom arrow order (for men's hunting bows anyway) yields a finished mass of around 400 grains. Now ... if you're not a hunter, bow noise isn't really a concern. For competition 3D shooting, where noise and penetration really don't make a difference, lighter arrows with flatter trajectories are definitely better. Most competition shooters want arrows which are at the league minimums or speeds at the league maximums.

    Speed vs. Kinetic Energy (Knock-Down Power)

    Here's where the debate gets heated. With all other variables constant, your bow will have more knock-down power when shooting heavier arrows. So some bowhunting enthusiasts will dismiss the benefits of faster arrow speeds and flatter trajectories, and claim that heavier and more deeply penetrating arrows are more responsible choices. But we have to keep this issue in perspective. Mathematically, there is a difference ... but how much? Does arrow mass affect knock-down power significantly? Does it actually make a difference in the field? Or is this debate just academic?

    To understand this issue, let's look at the basic physics. How much penetration, or knock-down power, a projectile has in the shooting sports is generally expressed in ft-lbs of kinetic energy. Arrows which impact the target with more kinetic energy will penetrate the target more deeply than arrows with less kinetic energy. Kinetic energy is the energy of motion. Any object which has motion has kinetic energy. Total kinetic energy depends upon two variables: the mass of the object and the speed of the object. Since we had mass and speed data from our earlier chronograph test, we simply converted those numbers into Kinetic Energy in the table below. Notice that as the arrow gets heavier, the amount of kinetic energy increases.

    Trial 1 Trial 2 Trial 3 Trial 4 Trial 5 Average
    250gr Arrow 47.99 47.99 48.32 47.99 47.99 48.06 ft-lbs
    300gr Arrow 50.02 49.30 49.66 49.66 49.66 49.66 ft-lbs
    350gr Arrow 50.95 50.95 51.34 50.55 50.95 50.95 ft-lbs
    400gr Arrow 52.03 52.03 52.03 52.46 52.03 52.12 ft-lbs
    450gr Arrow 53.33 53.33 53.33 52.87 53.33 53.24 ft-lbs
    500gr Arrow 53.75 53.26 53.75 53.75 53.26 53.55 ft-lbs
    550gr Arrow 54.39 53.87 53.36 53.87 53.36 53.77 ft-lbs
    600gr Arrow 54.38 53.84 53.84 54.38 54.38 54.16 ft-lbs
    650gr Arrow 55.46 54.90 54.90 54.90 54.33 54.90 ft-lbs

    In our example, the computed kinetic energy of the (5 gr/lb) 300 grain arrow was 49.66 ft-lbs. But when a 600 grain arrow was fired from the same bow, its computed kinetic energy was 54.16 ft-lbs. So doubling the arrow mass yielded another 9% in kinetic energy, or 'knock down power.' Obviously, all bows won't perform exactly as our test bow did, but you get the general idea - heavier arrows absorb more of the bow's energy (and carry more energy downrange). So if you want the added kinetic energy, you can shoot arrows at a heavy 10 gr/lb, just don't forget that to get the extra 9% in KE, you'll give up over 25% of your arrow velocity.

    So before you make your decision in the speed vs. kinetic energy debate, you should consider your target - and the energy is takes to ethically harvest that animal with a bow. If you're hunting smaller athletic animals, say Pronghorn Antelope, which are particularly alert and skittish, a faster arrow would surely be best. Hunting smaller game doesn't require as much knock-down power, so getting the arrow to the target quickly will increase your chances of success. Other the other hand, if you're pursuing a 600 lb. Elk, you'll be less concerned about the animal 'jumping your string' and more concerned about getting optimal penetration. So if you hunt large heavy game, a heavier arrow may increase your chances of success.

    Like many issues in archery, the speed vs. KE debate is one that may never end! Every hunter seems to have his own opinions on the proper techniques, strategies, and ethics of big game bowhunting - and what applies to one hunter may not necessarily apply to another. Ultimately, the choice is up to you.

    How Much KE Do I Need?

    If you have a hot-rod modern compound bow producing 70+ ft-lbs of KE, and you only hunt Whitetail Deer, the speed vs. KE debate is just academic. No matter what arrow you shoot, you'll have practically twice the energy required to harvest your deer. In fact, at 70+ ft-lbs, you would have plenty of power for even the largest North American game species. But if your bow isn't such a hot-rod, or if you shoot low poundage and/or a short draw length, the KE issue may be a hair worth splitting.

    According to Easton's field chart, the amount of KE you'll need varies by the species you intend to hunt. Obviously, the larger the game, the more KE you'll need. And regardless of the power of your bow, you'll still need to land your shots in the boilermaker. If you hit an animal in the shoulder, all bets are off. But assuming you do your part, Easton's recommendations gives us a place to start. Of course, these recommendations aren't absolutes, nor are they guarantees of success.

    Kinetic Energy
    Hunting Usage

    < 25 ft. lbs.
    Small Game (rabbit, groundhog, etc.)
    25-41 ft. lbs.
    Medium Game (deer, antelope, etc.)
    42-65 ft. lbs.
    Large Game (elk, black bear, wild boar, etc.)
    > 65 ft. lbs.
    Toughest Game (Cape Buffalo, Grizzly, etc.)

    To give this some perspective, refer back to our Bowtech Patriot test. Would our bow be capable of harvesting a Whitetail Deer? According to the chart, yes. A properly placed arrow - impacting with 50+ ft-lbs of KE - has a very good chance of generating a clean pass-thru on a Whitetail Deer. So with respect to kinetic energy and Whitetail hunting, there may be no practical difference between the 300 grain arrow impacting with 49.66 ft-lbs of KE and a 600 grain arrow impacting with 54.16 ft-lbs (as in our experiment above). Assuming favorable conditions and a good shot, either arrow would provide sufficient energy to make a clean harvest on a deer. But if we decided to take our Bowtech Patriot out for some Minnesota Black Bear or Rocky Mountain Elk ... we just might come up short on power. So in that case, the extra KE might come in handy.

    How Do I Compute Kinetic Energy?

    Kinetic energy of an arrow can be found by using the formula KE=(mv²)/450,240 where m is the mass of the arrow in grains and v is the velocity of the arrow in fps. The 450,240 just sorts out all the units and converts things from fps & grains to ft-lbs. So if your new bow setup ultimately shoots a 400 grain arrow at a respectable 250 fps, your actual kinetic energy or 'knock down power' will be:

    KE=55.53 ft-lbs

    Before we move on, we should mention that KE and Momentum aren't the same thing. We received an email several seasons ago from a gentleman who emphatically insisted that Kinetic Energy was NOT the best mathematical predictor of hunting penetration with a bow and arrow. He said that the industry standard expression of Kinetic Energy was 'short-sighted' since the benefit of speed is exaggerated by squaring velocity in the equation (we didn't make up the equation BTW) and that the KE model applies better to high-speed projectiles like bullets. He explained (at some length) that Momentum was the better model for archery. With over 10 years in the archery industry, we have yet to see an archery product rated for slug/fps. But in the interest of leaving no stone unturned ...


    Should you have an unquenchable interest in ballistic physics, you may find it interesting that a few sporting enthusiasts will even dispute the convention that KE is the best measurement for predicting hunting penetration with a bow and arrow. A number of enthusiasts will debate that MOMENTUM is the better mathematical model. Of course, KE and Momentum aren't the same thing.....

    ----> Kinetic Energy = Weight X Velocity Squared /2 X Acceleration of Gravity
    ----> Momentum = Weight X Velocity / Acceleration of Gravity

    Since velocity isn't squared in the momentum formula, arrow mass and velocity play more equivalent roles. The kinetic energy of a moving body increases as the square of the velocity whereas the momentum increases directly as velocity increases. So if you recomputed our chart to show momentum, then the graph would look much different. The heavier arrows would show a significant improvement in overall momentum, and you could therefore conclude that heavier arrows would indeed yield dramatically better penetration.

    Right or wrong, the shooting sports have a number of traditions and conventions regarding technical measurement. And the lethality of a projectile (whether from a firearm or bow) is traditionally expressed as a function of KE (ft-lbs). As such, most sporting enthusiasts have some comprehension of this measurement. Unfortunately, a momentum rating in Slug Feet-per-Second would surely leave many of us scratching our heads. Given the dramatic difference in the two methodologies, it seems unlikely that KE has remained the 'standard' for so long if it's entirely incorrect. There are a lot of talented engineers in the archery industry. So either they have ALL missed it, or perhaps the momentum theory has a glitch (not to worry - our team of physicists are working on it now).

    Should you have an interest in the debate regarding which mathematical model is best applicable to archery, here's some basic argument on the topic ( For more discussion, Dr. Ed Ashby also has an interesting and exhaustively extensive article on the subject ( Kinetic Energy and Arrow Penetration.htm) you might want to check out (have your scientific calculator handy).

    Perspective on Hunting Math

    Regardless of how you crunch your numbers during pre-season, you can't avoid the elements of chance during the actual hunt. Shooting a live animal in the woods is quite different than shooting a block of ballistics gel in a laboratory. In the field you'll encounter unpredictable and complex variables that limit any mathematical model to just a 'best guess.' If you consider that your arrow must arrive on target then pass through layers of hair, hide, muscles, bones (perhaps), and a host of other tissues.....AND that all of this is happening in an uncontrolled outdoor environment, it's pretty clear that the issue of hunting penetration cannot truly be distilled into a mathematical puzzle. As many experienced bowhunters can attest, just as it's possible to make mistakes and get lucky, it's also possible to do everything right and come-up empty handed. That's just part of the sport. However, with good equipment, good technique, smart planning, and some good-old common sense, you can surely tip the scales in your favor and maximize your chances of success in the field.
    Dang lol
    Dang man, I aint reading all that lol!!! I just want to kill a deer not build a rocket lol. I do know that a fast bow will make you miss quicker lol...When I was getting my arrows he started talking all this stuff and I said Look man!! I just want to Hunt!! Sell me a decent arrow and Cut them my length, He did that and said...These should get you close to 300 Feet per second and My reply was 'I don't care nothing about that either!!' He said I wish all the customers were like you, Some Guys spend a whole day here and still leave unsatisfied. I simply looked up my Draw weight and seen I needed a 400 series for a 100 grain head and I was happy lol...Like I said Before Speed aint worth nothing if you cant hit the intended Target!! I have even thought of cranking my draw weight down more...People Kill deer with 45lb Bows shooting 210 FPS all the Time!!!!!
    No i am not close to 330 but ibo speeds r measured with a 30' draw with an arrow that weighs 350 grains an set at 70pound on the draw weight. This is a test not setting I try to achieve on my setup. I'm a 28' draw my arrow weighs 390and have my bow set on 68 pounds on the draw weight. The speed is 285fps which is more than fast enough an makes my kinetic energy around 70 which is more than enough to achieve pass through on a deer. Speed is not important to me because i like to be accurate and deadly. heavy arrows at a slower speed hit harder than a lighter faster arrow because they are more stable in flight and that's what i strive to do when i set up a hunting bow
    crunching the numbers
    Viper you forget most hunters don't give a dang about all the numbers they just want to kill a deer an depend on proshops to setup the bow an recommend the correct arrows to shoot so the info u gave above probably went over most peoples head. the best way to tell them to choose the best arrow for there setup is to shoot different arrows an pick the one that fly the straight an goes into the target the deepest an leave the math in schools lol
    Opening Statement
    I guess you missed my opening statement:

    Here's a good read on arrow set up I copied from Hunter's Friend. This is why I want lighter, faster arrows. If I were hunting Elk or Moose.....things would be different. I want to cut my arrow flight time by a 1/3 at any given distance, and increase accuracy, minimizing wounding deer. Number one goal!

    I just want the most out of my equipment and posted this so that other beginning hunters and some veterans, whom want the same, could have a better understanding of their equipment. Just education.

    I guess you missed the key parts about, more speed less chance of missing, which translates into less wounded animals, IMO. And the part about hunters don't need a flagpole to kill a deer, as far as heavy arrows and kinetic energy goes.The reality is the kinetic energy difference between a 250 grain arrow and a 650 grain arrow is about 8 pounds. Not even enough to make a difference on a deer. Heavier arrows just fall out of the air quicker as stated in the article because of gravity! FOC not mentioned in the article is what creates stability of an arrow in flight.

    It's an each to their own thing. It's kind of like which turkey choke with which shot size works best in each gun. It's about efficency, which I choose to be, hunting any game animal.
    Bear Ice If I could find one I would like to try them out. There are just so many new bows out there that shoot so good lol....I am no sure what speed I am shooting but I would guess in the 260-270 range which is plenty of KE to kill an animal. However I would like to thank if I would have had 30-40 more fps I would have nailed them to deer. Nothing wrong with speed if it doesn't effect your accuracy. It makes more sense to shoot a faster arrow if you can maintain your form and precision. Like I said it is not a necessity but it definitely helps...
    Hunter's Friend
    If anyone is interested. Here's the link to Hunter's Friend 'Arrow University'

    You can also go to their home page and shop bows, or arrows. Lots of good info on this site!